- Boards
- Pro Wrestling: WWE
- Let's say Fingerpoke doesn't happen, WCW wins the ratings that night
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Would it have made any difference in the long run? WWF would just beat them in the weeks and months after.
Dont be ridiculous. I think FIVE evil steps ahead
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It might if Hogan Vs Nash was booked right with how many were interested it'd be great.
Let's not forget according to Nash finger poke was to unite nWo back into a single unit to feed Goldberg. Problem was Goldberg put his hand through a window instead of using pipe because he's an iddiot. So no finger poke of doom. With Goldberg injured they have a place to go with Hogan Vs Nash and not throw out 6 - 12 months of plans. It's possible the quality would improve as they were seeing where they were going wrong.
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So Goldberg's injury was more of the issue than the fingerpoke?
Dont be ridiculous. I think FIVE evil steps ahead
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YoshitoKikuchi posted...
So Goldberg's injury was more of the issue than the fingerpoke? Yes but only in hindsight as both together means you a have a twist that ruins s match people wanted , no pay off and no plan going forward. So people assume it's just the poke but it's both imo
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It was a combination of the injury nixing the storyline and spoiling Foley's title win.
Uhh....no team has ever come back from a 21 point deficit in a Super Bowl. Not even the Pats. -bIeck5
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No, the fingerpoke is a good symbolic moment that represents the turning of the tides in the Monday Night War, but it itself wasn't significant enough to cause it. Nitro's ratings had plateaued a while ago while Raw's had been rising steadily since late 1997, so WWF were bound to overtake at some point. WCW's main problems, such as the stagnation of the nWo, would've still existed and been a problem regardless of this one moment. Although it's hard to say anything more concrete, as removing the fingerpoke would entirely rewrite the main storyline of the show and one could imagine a number of different scenarios that could follow (both good and bad).
Look at arson - I mean, how many of us can honestly say that at one time or another he hasn't set fire to some great public building? I know I have.
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ssjmole posted...
It might if Hogan Vs Nash was booked right with how many were interested it'd be great. Nash also said he could walk whiteout tearing his quad. I don't believe anything that clown says. |
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ssjmole posted...
It might if Hogan Vs Nash was booked right with how many were interested it'd be great. Don't get your information from Kevin Nash. Goldberg injured his hand in December 99. Fingerpoke was in January 99. Nash is lying to cover up the fact he was one of the worst bookers ever. Seriously, Nash's booking overall probably did more damage to WCW than just that one incident. He completely changed the structure of the shows, ran ridiculously long vinettes and put guys in terrible angles such as Raven at home with his Mom, Ric Flair in a mental hospital, David Flair winning titles among others. They even had an episode of Nitro where the first hour had absolutely no wrestling. It was a vast contrast to the type of programming they were running a year earlier and I'm not surprised they lost half their audience in six months in comparison to what WWF was doing. If they had continued where they were in 98 they would have still been a close competitor and not extended the gap so far.
Are you not....entertained!?
(edited 2 weeks ago)
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I think the fact the WWE had Austin and Rock meant they were going to win regardless. If anything not doing the finger poke of doom would have just extended WCWs life a few more months, maybe a year or so. Then we dont get the shitty Invasion storyline, and maybe WWE brings in the WCW talent slower and more efficiently.
Ask me if I would eat da booty.
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spudY2K posted...
No, the fingerpoke is a good symbolic moment that represents the turning of the tides in the Monday Night War, but it itself wasn't significant enough to cause it. Nitro's ratings had plateaued a while ago while Raw's had been rising steadily since late 1997, so WWF were bound to overtake at some point. WCW's main problems, such as the stagnation of the nWo, would've still existed and been a problem regardless of this one moment. Although it's hard to say anything more concrete, as removing the fingerpoke would entirely rewrite the main storyline of the show and one could imagine a number of different scenarios that could follow (both good and bad). This.
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Snake posted...
ssjmole posted...It might if Hogan Vs Nash was booked right with how many were interested it'd be great. I'm more in agreement with this, honestly.
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Snake posted...
ssjmole posted...It might if Hogan Vs Nash was booked right with how many were interested it'd be great. They are only a week or 2 apart. I know wcw doctors were not always the best ect... It's possible they thought he might recover , with it been over holidays it's also possible they didn't get update. Not saying he's 100% right but it makes sense as fingerpoke did what he said , reunited nWo to its strongest ready to feed a baby-face.
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People need to re-watch that time period. The show was still good even after the fingerpoke of doom. It began to suck because all of the talent disappeared/got injured and the only people left in the nWo were a bunch of jobbers like Hogan's nephew, Stevie Ray and Vincent. It went from being a huge monolith that made up the entire show to a tiny faction of jobbers within months, and the worst part is that this happened without any face actually taking down the nWo.
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ssjmole posted...
Snake posted...ssjmole posted...show hidden quote(s) Umm January 99 to December 99 is a whole year. Goldberg's injury occurred on 12/21/99. So it was almost 12 months apart exactly.
Are you not....entertained!?
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Snake posted...
Seriously, Nash's booking overall probably did more damage to WCW than just that one incident. He completely changed the structure of the shows, ran ridiculously long vinettes and put guys in terrible angles such as Raven at home with his Mom, Ric Flair in a mental hospital, David Flair winning titles among others. They even had an episode of Nitro where the first hour had absolutely no wrestling. Close competitor? No way. People vastly underestimate just how huge the WWF got in 1999 and 2000. Even at its absolute best, WCW never came close to scratching the WWF's heights in ratings, buyrates or live show attendance during the Attitude Era. By March of 1999, RAW's average ratings were better than Nitro's best ever rating, and things only got bigger and better from there. As someone else pointed out, the Fingerpoke of Doom was a more symbolic turning point in the Monday Night Wars than an actual crossroads. Even if WCW somehow managed to regain and maintain its best ever ratings throughout the entirety of 1999, the WWF just reached a whole different level during that same period and the months to come after. The gap would have been closer, but it still would have been a lopsided WWF victory. |
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Didn't say WWF wouldn't have stayed number 1 but WCW losing half their audience was also WWF's gain that year. Don't discredit the success WCW had in 98 either. They had their highest ratings, highest attendance and highest profit margins that proved that they were still a powerhouse in the industry despite WWF catching up and surpassing them.
By the end of 98 they were running a lot of large arena shows averaging 30-40 thousand attendance numbers. That's why it's so disappointing that they dropped off so fast with a string of bad decision making that could have easily been avoided.
Are you not....entertained!?
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Snake posted...
ssjmole posted...Snake posted...show hidden quote(s) Good point. I saw Dec 24 and Jan 4 and didn't look at year lol the nWo in Dec was Russos shit one. My bad.
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ssjmole posted...
Snake posted...ssjmole posted...show hidden quote(s) Yea I was surprised rewatching and analyzing Nash's booking era just how bad he was. So much so that I concluded that he may have been even worse than Russo in many ways which is saying something because I absolutely despised what Russo did to WCW's product.
Are you not....entertained!?
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Snake posted...
Didn't say WWF wouldn't have stayed number 1 but WCW losing half their audience was also WWF's gain that year. Don't discredit the success WCW had in 98 either. They had their highest ratings, highest attendance and highest profit margins that proved that they were still a powerhouse in the industry despite WWF catching up and surpassing them. I'm not discrediting WCW's successes in 1998. I'm just saying that the WWF's successes afterward are being underestimated, as they totally dwarfed WCW's best. The WWF reached far greater heights in 1999 and 2000, so high that WCW couldn't have provided close competition even if it had returned to its absolute peak. The WWF did more than simply gain from WCW's loss of fans. It added millions of new eyes to its product, even when Nitro was still averaging some of its highest ratings. In July of 1998, Nitro got a 4.8 rating to beat RAW's 4.0. As late as February of 1999, Nitro got another 4.8 rating, only to lose to RAW's 5.5. By April of 1999, Nitro's still-solid 4.4 rating was trounced by RAW's 6.3. This wasn't simply a matter of "WCW's loss was WWF's gain". Vince had his company on a whole different level by mid-1999, and the ratings reflected that when RAW's numbers kept skyrocketing even when competing with some of Nitro's best numbers. It's remarkable how fast WCW fell off its pedestal, I certainly agree. But there's a big difference between simply marveling at that fall (and wondering if it could have been prevented), and positing that WCW could have remained a close competitor to the WWF had Kevin Nash not had the book in 1999, or had they not gone through with the Fingerpoke of Doom. The outcome of the war was out of WCW's hands long before that. |
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No doubt 99 brought more new wrestling fans due to Austin and the like but you also can't say for sure that WCW wouldn't have kept the rating difference closer. April 99 they were down to a 4.4 but had they kept their momentum going from 98 they easily could have stayed floating into the mid 5s. You also have to take into account that if they were still putting out a quality product they would have had the potential for those new fans to look at their product also. You can't say for sure the war would have been over regardless because as had been proven it only took a certain fresh angle or star to turn the tide and WCW doing so when their rating were reaching the 5s wouldn't have been unrealistic in that scenario.
Are you not....entertained!?
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Snake posted...
No doubt 99 brought more new wrestling fans due to Austin and the like but you also can't say for sure that WCW wouldn't have kept the rating difference closer. April 99 they were down to a 4.4 but had they kept their momentum going from 98 they easily could have stayed floating into the mid 5s. You also have to take into account that if they were still putting out a quality product they would have had the potential for those new fans to look at their product also. You can't say for sure the war would have been over regardless because as had been proven it only took a certain fresh angle or star to turn the tide and WCW doing so when their rating were reaching the 5s wouldn't have been unrealistic in that scenario. While it is possible to put together a set of events where WCW is able to achieve all of that, I'd argue that you're starting to stray from alternate history into fantasy booking. On the evidence we have available, I'd say that WCW's best likely trajectory would have been to remain in the 4.x range. They'd been hitting that sort of rating consistently from September 1997 onward and, while their ratings had remained steady, nothing WCW did in between then and the first quarter of 1999 had been able to shift it up a gear from there. Sure, if WCW had pushed the right person or had come up with the right storyline then they could've skyrocketed and won the war, but is the really any evidence to suggest that that was going to happen if Nash wasn't in the way? It's not impossible, sure, but that isn't saying much when you could also make that sort of argument for most major promotions in the past 40 years. Personally, I'd put the probability far below 50% (particularly when you look at how WCW's backstage reputedly was at that time).
Look at arson - I mean, how many of us can honestly say that at one time or another he hasn't set fire to some great public building? I know I have.
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I wouldn't say they would've won the war. WWF had possibly the greatest overall product ever in 2000 but I think it could have put WCW in a better position where they may not have been seen as such a liability and an easy property to throw away and they could have survived past 2001.
Are you not....entertained!?
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Snake posted...
No doubt 99 brought more new wrestling fans due to Austin and the like but you also can't say for sure that WCW wouldn't have kept the rating difference closer. April 99 they were down to a 4.4 but had they kept their momentum going from 98 they easily could have stayed floating into the mid 5s. You also have to take into account that if they were still putting out a quality product they would have had the potential for those new fans to look at their product also. You can't say for sure the war would have been over regardless because as had been proven it only took a certain fresh angle or star to turn the tide and WCW doing so when their rating were reaching the 5s wouldn't have been unrealistic in that scenario. Even hoping for mid-5s out of WCW would have been a lofty goal. Unless I'm mistaken, Nitro's rating never surpassed 5.2 head-to-head against RAW, even during its absolute height. Overall, it only topped that number three times, each when RAW was pre-empted. Nitro's highest ever rating was a 6.0 (again, when its competition was pre-empted). RAW surpassed a 6.0 rating dozens of times, almost all when head-to-head against Nitro. Hell, RAW had more ratings over 6.7 than Nitro did over 5. They weren't even in the same ballpark at their respective peaks. Once again, it is hard to comprehend just how far ahead RAW got in the Monday Night Wars by 1999. It wasn't just a matter of "finding a fresh angle or star to turn the tide", as WCW's hottest angle in the NWO and its hottest star in Goldberg never scratched the ratings that the WWF was doing. It was a company philosophy that propelled the WWF in the Attitude Era, and it was one that WCW could not replicate due to reasons outside of its control (never mind all the actual backstage issues it did have). Eric Bischoff, among many others, has talked at length about this. The Monday Night Wars were over as early as August 1998, not just because Vince had hot stars and hot angles, but because he was able to totally overhaul the philosophy of his company and push boundaries to draw in those millions of new fans. This was not an viable option for WCW after 1998. Could WCW have done much better than it did in 1999 and 2000? Absolutely. But again, even if WCW regained (or even surpassed) its absolute highest peaks of business, it still wouldn't come close to matching the numbers the WWF was putting up. Things were so, so much more lopsided against WCW in 1999 and 2000 than they had been in reverse when the WWF was losing the war in 1996 and 1997. Many people fail to realize this. |
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Snake posted...
ssjmole posted...It might if Hogan Vs Nash was booked right with how many were interested it'd be great. It's a shame Hall was an alcoholic. I honestly feel like he could've done some really good things with that type of power. And he doesn't really care about wins and losses, belts, etc. He just wants to get paid. Hall would job for Goldberg because it sells tickets. And he'd still be over because he's Scott Hall. He wouldn't feel the need to put himself over everyone, like pretty much every other wrestler turned booker.
"The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer." (Psalm 18:2 - ESV)
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PunkRockGiik posted...
People need to re-watch that time period. The show was still good even after the fingerpoke of doom. It began to suck because all of the talent disappeared/got injured and the only people left in the nWo were a bunch of jobbers like Hogan's nephew, Stevie Ray and Vincent. It went from being a huge monolith that made up the entire show to a tiny faction of jobbers within months, and the worst part is that this happened without any face actually taking down the nWo. @PunkRockGiik I'm 100% in agreement with you. A LOT of people seem to forget what the NWO crumbled into a ball of shit after a bunch of injuries (plus lost of talent) happened. The NWO literally devolved into Stevie Ray (who somehow became the fucking leader of the N.W.O) Vincent (A.K.A: Virgil..... freaking Virgil), Norton, Horace Hogan (who was horrible) and a few other guys who would join but would later get kicked out (like Brain Adams). Other wise, from for a good portion of early to mid 1999, the core of the NWO was Stevie Ray, Vincent, Horace Hogan, and Norton..... that's it!!!! The worse is that they got jobbed out. For fucks sake, that entire NWO got thrown into a fued with Ernest Miller.... who would later go on to beat them at the end of the feud....  The worst was how the original version of the NWO ended..... it didn't have an ending. Vincent just left to join the West Texas Rednecks (seriously), Stevie Ray left to rejoin Harlem Heat, etc, etc, etc. When Hogan and Nash came back they were just there and were NOT unified in anyway.... there was NO NWO at that point (despite Hogan still wearing an NWO t-shirt when he came back in July of 1999), just everybody by themselves...... NO faction... NO unification...... The worse is when they had Macho Man Randy Savage win the world title at Bash at the Beach 1999 and then Hulk Hogan returns the next night on Nitro and beats him.... what the fuck?!?!? Granted, Macho was having health problems around this time... I get that.... but still.....  In general, the booking started to go to shit during early to mid 1999. Arguably the most damaging thing was DAVID FLAIR during this time as the U.S champion. It was so bad, it stood out in a horrible way.  The show started to go to hell BEFORE Russo got there during late 1999.....
Confidence? It's nothing but an illusion.
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Oliver_Oliver posted...
PunkRockGiik posted...People need to re-watch that time period. The show was still good even after the fingerpoke of doom. It began to suck because all of the talent disappeared/got injured and the only people left in the nWo were a bunch of jobbers like Hogan's nephew, Stevie Ray and Vincent. It went from being a huge monolith that made up the entire show to a tiny faction of jobbers within months, and the worst part is that this happened without any face actually taking down the nWo. Yup, that's when I stopped watching. Who was booking during this period of time? (Early 1999 to mid 1999) |
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Kevin Nash was booking.
Are you not....entertained!?
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Snake posted...
Kevin Nash was booking. Wow, I really think he's to blame for killing that company then. Scott Hall should have been booking, he came up with Crow Sting and has a great mind for the business. Why did they give the position to Nash? |
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EDIT:
I just noticed that I put the wrong Ernest Millar video in the previous posts. This is the correct one with him VS the jobber version of the NWO: Oliver_Oliver posted... PunkRockGiik posted...Oliver_Oliver posted...show hidden quote(s)
Confidence? It's nothing but an illusion.
(edited 2 weeks ago)
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PunkRockGiik posted...
Snake posted...Kevin Nash was booking. Hall was completely unreliable due to his own issues. EB agrees with your "great mind" comment, but only when Hall was on form (like 2% of the time). Nash, however, was great at politics and basically talked his way into the position because despite everything, most people thought he was a stand up guy (although their opinion may have been clouded due to him manipulating them all into believing every problem was because of Hogan).
I love to watch you cry
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Nash was still better than Russo though in terms of what he brought to wcw all around.
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bigbug1992 posted...
It was a combination of the injury nixing the storyline and spoiling Foley's title win. Yeah, it wasn't the finger poke that lost the ratings, it was the numerous comments about Foley's title win that did it.
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BiggWillieStylk posted...
bigbug1992 posted...It was a combination of the injury nixing the storyline and spoiling Foley's title win. I knew we'd have posts claiming WCW caused the switch over.
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sniperfox29 posted...
PunkRockGiik posted...Snake posted...show hidden quote(s) I think 2% sells Hall at least a little short. Bischoff himself isn't as bright as he thinks he is.
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Oliver_Oliver posted...
As some have said, Nash was very good at politics and talked his way into the head of creative. In reality, Kevin Sullivan (given some of the amazing things he did from mid-1996 all the way till almost the end of 1998 before Nash starting popping in more and more) should have been head of creative during 1999.
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(edited 1 week ago)
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ssjmole posted...
Nash was still better than Russo though in terms of what he brought to wcw all around. The main thing Nash maintained at least was WCW's identity which Russo completely changed overnight. Even with a lot of shit angles WCW still felt like the same southern-style more wrestling focused product. Russo immediately turned WCW into WWF-Lite and they lost any semblance of their own style. Everything felt like a poor mans Raw with less wrestling and more stupid shit which was especially bad considering WWF had such a popular product at the time. Add in Russo's stupid "shoot" booking fetish and you had a recipe for disaster.
Are you not....entertained!?
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ssjmole posted...
It might if Hogan Vs Nash was booked right with how many were interested it'd be great. The only way Hogan/Nash is booked right is not to be booked at all. Big Sweaty Ego Maniacs who Vince was in love with. Bastards.
I'll get back up for good this time and I ain't comin' down...
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Snake posted...
ssjmole posted...Nash was still better than Russo though in terms of what he brought to wcw all around. Russo was put on a shorter leash than Nash, and was only brought in to reinvent the product.
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Some interesting stuff in this topic I did not know.
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BiggWillieStylk posted...
sniperfox29 posted...PunkRockGiik posted...show hidden quote(s) While I agree EB isn't as good as he thinks he is, putting Hall in charge would be downright stupid given his condition at the time.
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For lurkers not knowing the fingerpoke of doom downfall
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sniperfox29 posted...
BiggWillieStylk posted...sniperfox29 posted...show hidden quote(s) I'm not trying to imply that putting Hall in charge at that point in time would have been a good idea. Just that you can't always take what Bischoff says seriously.
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BiggWillieStylk posted...
sniperfox29 posted...BiggWillieStylk posted...show hidden quote(s) True, but in this case he does have a point. Hall really was that far gone (not that it didn't stop WCW from using him).
I love to watch you cry
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So today is the 19 year anniversary.
Dont be ridiculous. I think FIVE evil steps ahead
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Oliver_Oliver posted...
EDIT: Sullivan should have been the one in control, not Nash (but politics wins in the end, which Nash was good at).
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Oh, and the David Flair story (which led to a David Flair U.S title reign while under Nash's booking) was indeed horrendous.
I now give you one of the WORST matches I have ever seen. It's only about 4 minutes long, but I guarantee you will see SEVERAL very noticeable botches. El Dandy (David Flair's opponent) tries his best to carry the match (he really does), but David Flair is a pure botchamania machine from hell. Poor El Dandy..... poor guy would have better luck making a five star match with a fucking broom than he would have with David "Botch" Flair:  I've never seen so many botches in one match... and it's not even a long match. LMAO.
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(edited 1 week ago)
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Sullivan should have been the one in control, not Nash (but politics wins in the end, which Nash was good at).
You mean the Sullivan who a lot of wrestlers hated and tried to quit when Sullivan was even given a sniff of power?
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(edited 1 week ago)
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sniperfox29 posted...
Sullivan should have been the one in control, not Nash (but politics wins in the end, which Nash was good at). That's the paradox of the situation. Kevin Sullivan is a VERY talented booker most of the time (especially during mid 96 till the end of 98). He was booking some god tier stuff in WCW from mid 1996 till late 1998 (which is when WCW was # 1 and WWE (WWF) was in the shit hole for a large portion of that time when it came to ratings), however, some wrestlers hated him and used politics against him (which led to Nash to officially becoming the top creative mind during early to mid 1999). HOWEVER, one of Sullivan's main problems was Chris Benoit.... the same Chris Benoit who slept with Sullivan's wife (Nancy) and caused Sullivan's marriage to end as Benoit took Nancy as his own wife, screwing Sullivan over. Then Benoit got many of his buddies to join his cause against Sullivan. In the end, many of the people against Sullivan were dirty pieces of shit (like Benoit, who was paranoid that Sullivan was going to get revenge since Benoit slept with Sullivan's wife, caused a divorce, and claimed Sullian's wife as his own. The irony of this was that in various shoot interview, Sullivan stated that he ALWAYS stayed professional and did what's best for the show from mid 96 till the end of 98 before Nash started to pop up..... Sullivan did what's best for business, NOT for himself): 
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(edited 1 week ago)
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- Boards
- Pro Wrestling: WWE
- Let's say Fingerpoke doesn't happen, WCW wins the ratings that night
- Boards
- Pro Wrestling: WWE
- Let's say Fingerpoke doesn't happen, WCW wins the ratings that night
zzeennoolloo posted...sniperfox29 posted...
Sullivan should have been the one in control, not Nash (but politics wins in the end, which Nash was good at).
You mean the Sullivan who a lot of wrestlers hated and tried to quit when Sullivan was even given a sniff of power?
That's the paradox of the situation. Kevin Sullivan is a VERY talented booker most of the time (especially during mid 96 till the end of 98). He was booking some god tier stuff in WCW from mid 1996 till late 1998 (which is when WCW was # 1 and WWE (WWF) was in the shit hole for a large portion of that time when it came to ratings), however, some wrestlers hated him and used politics against him (which led to Nash to officially becoming the top creative mind during early to mid 1999).
HOWEVER, one of Sullivan's main problems was Chris Benoit.... the same Chris Benoit who slept with Sullivan's wife (Nancy) and caused Sullivan's marriage to end as Benoit took Nancy as his own wife, screwing Sullivan over. Then Benoit got many of his buddies to join his cause against Sullivan. In the end, many of the people against Sullivan were dirty pieces of shit (like Benoit, who was paranoid that Sullivan was going to get revenge since Benoit slept with Sullivan's wife, caused a divorce, and claimed Sullian's wife as his own. The irony of this was that in various shoot interview, Sullivan stated that he ALWAYS stayed professional and did what's best for the show from mid 96 till the end of 98 before Nash started to pop up... NOT for himself):
Yeah, because Sullivan is going to admit that "yeah, I was going to screw them over like I had before".I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29sniperfox29 posted...zzeennoolloo posted...
sniperfox29 posted...
show hidden quote(s)
That's the paradox of the situation. Kevin Sullivan is a VERY talented booker most of the time (especially during mid 96 till the end of 98). He was booking some god tier stuff in WCW from mid 1996 till late 1998 (which is when WCW was # 1 and WWE (WWF) was in the shit hole for a large portion of that time when it came to ratings), however, some wrestlers hated him and used politics against him (which led to Nash to officially becoming the top creative mind during early to mid 1999).
HOWEVER, one of Sullivan's main problems was Chris Benoit.... the same Chris Benoit who slept with Sullivan's wife (Nancy) and caused Sullivan's marriage to end as Benoit took Nancy as his own wife, screwing Sullivan over. Then Benoit got many of his buddies to join his cause against Sullivan. In the end, many of the people against Sullivan were dirty pieces of shit (like Benoit, who was paranoid that Sullivan was going to get revenge since Benoit slept with Sullivan's wife, caused a divorce, and claimed Sullian's wife as his own. The irony of this was that in various shoot interview, Sullivan stated that he ALWAYS stayed professional and did what's best for the show from mid 96 till the end of 98 before Nash started to pop up... NOT for himself):
Yeah, because Sullivan is going to admit that "yeah, I was going to screw them over like I had before".
At the beginning of January 2000 in between Russo being asked to leave the first time but BEFORE Russo came back (with Eric Bischoff) for Russo's second reign in charge starting April 2000, when Kevin Sullivan was granted temporary power as booker, Sullivan gave Benoit the WORLD TITLE. However, Benoit got paranoid that Sullivan was out to get him and then left to WWE with the rest of the Radicals. This is from an interview with Kevin Sullivan:
Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, and Perry Saturn jumping to WWF when he was named booker of WCW in January 2000:
KEVIN SULLIVAN: "I think it might have been personal, it probably was personal. I just made one of them World Heavyweight Champion (Benoit), and it takes a lot of balls to ask did [Sid] Vicious to lose to a guy that is five foot six. But, they felt that I was going to do something, or they didn't feel comfortable, or they got an offer from Vince. I really believe that it was either me or them, and the company stayed with me. If I was the guy running the company! I don't know if I would've done that. I think it was a personal problem, but I didn't take any problems at work personally. Plus, I knew they were the best talent that I had, why would you shit where you eat? I can dislike somebody, but when it's business, put it aside. When you put the World belt on one of them and then the next week you are going to put the tag belts on them, I think I gave the olive branch as much as I could. I think they had made their minds up. Plus, prior to me coming back I think they had their minds poisoned by the other two, [Vince] Russo and [Ed] Ferrara."Creator of the most talked about 500 post topic on the Wii U board, the most populated board on Gamefaqs. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/631516-wii-u/72708411(edited 1 week ago)zzeennoolloo posted...sniperfox29 posted...
zzeennoolloo posted...
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Yeah, because Sullivan is going to admit that "yeah, I was going to screw them over like I had before".
At the beginning of January 2000 in between Russo being asked to leave the first time but BEFORE Russo came back (with Eric Bischoff) for Russo's second reign in charge starting April 2000, when Kevin Sullivan was granted temporary power as booker, Sullivan gave Benoit the WORLD TITLE. However, Benoit got paranoid that Sullivan was out to get him and then left to WWE with the rest of the Radicals. This is from an interview with Kevin Sullivan:
Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, and Perry Saturn jumping to WWF when he was named booker of WCW in January 2000:
KEVIN SULLIVAN: "I think it might have been personal, it probably was personal. I just made one of them World Heavyweight Champion (Benoit), and it takes a lot of balls to ask did [Sid] Vicious to lose to a guy that is five foot six. But, they felt that I was going to do something, or they didn't feel comfortable, or they got an offer from Vince. I really believe that it was either me or them, and the company stayed with me. If I was the guy running the company! I don't know if I would've done that. I think it was a personal problem, but I didn't take any problems at work personally. Plus, I knew they were the best talent that I had, why would you shit where you eat? I can dislike somebody, but when it's business, put it aside. When you put the World belt on one of them and then the next week you are going to put the tag belts on them, I think I gave the olive branch as much as I could. I think they had made their minds up. Plus, prior to me coming back I think they had their minds poisoned by the other two, [Vince] Russo and [Ed] Ferrara."
Sure he was, when he'd been removed from Nitro and Thunder and left to book Saturday night. WCW didn't stick with him, they would have dumped him given half a chance (they just weren't given that chance because the Radicals up and left).I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29zzeennoolloo posted...Oh, and the David Flair story (which led to a David Flair U.S title reign while under Nash's booking) was indeed horrendous.
I now give you one of the WORST matches I have ever seen. It's only about 4 minutes long, but I guarantee you will see SEVERAL very noticeable botches. El Dandy (David Flair's opponent) tries his best to carry the match (he really does), but David Flair is a pure botchamania machine from hell. Poor El Dandy..... poor guy would have better luck making a five star match with a fucking broom than he would have with David "Botch" Flair:
I've never seen so many botches in one match... and it's not even a long match. LMAO.
Holy shit.... that really is a horrendous match. LMAO.
On a scale from 1 to 10, I give it a - 1 (yes, a negative 1). I feel sorry for El Dandy being placed in a situation like that. I think El Dandy wrestling a toaster would have made for a better match.... the toaster would have sold El Dandy's moves better and provided more convincing offense...Confidence? It's nothing but an illusion.(edited 1 week ago)sniperfox29 posted...BiggWillieStylk posted...
sniperfox29 posted...
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I'm not trying to imply that putting Hall in charge at that point in time would have been a good idea. Just that you can't always take what Bischoff says seriously.
True, but in this case he does have a point. Hall really was that far gone (not that it didn't stop WCW from using him).
I am not even saying they should have went with Hall -- just that he would have been better than Nash. They should have kept Sullivan.Oliver_Oliver posted...zzeennoolloo posted...
Oh, and the David Flair story (which led to a David Flair U.S title reign while under Nash's booking) was indeed horrendous.
I now give you one of the WORST matches I have ever seen. It's only about 4 minutes long, but I guarantee you will see SEVERAL very noticeable botches. El Dandy (David Flair's opponent) tries his best to carry the match (he really does), but David Flair is a pure botchamania machine from hell. Poor El Dandy..... poor guy would have better luck making a five star match with a fucking broom than he would have with David "Botch" Flair:
I've never seen so many botches in one match... and it's not even a long match. LMAO.
Holy shit.... that really is a horrendous match. LMAO.
On a scale from 1 to 10, I give it a - 1 (yes, a negative 1). I feel sorry for El Dandy being placed in a situation like that. I think El Dandy wrestling a toaster would have made for a better match.... the toaster would have sold El Dandy's moves better and provided more convincing offense...
El Dandy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A broom >>>>> a toaster >>>>> the Reeses Peanut Butter Cup wrapper on my floor >>>>>>>> the gum under my boot >>>>>>> David Flair's wrestling ability.
What the hell was Nash thinking booking David Flair as United States champion?!?
Anyway,
Nash didn't like Sullivan (which I strongly suspect led to Nash using politics to get into creative and becoming head booker during early to mid 1999 with Sullivan not in charge), but Sullivan was a god tier wrestling booker compared to Nash, Russo, etc.
While Sullivan's earlier stuff (when he was just starting out) wasn't the best (his WCW 1995 Dungeon of Doom stuff was cartoonish.... but it did get entertaining many times in a fun cartoonish way and still got better ratings than most of 1995 WWE, which was much worse) Sullivan's booking got infinitely better later on and his decisions behind the "Hostile Takeover" story (when Hall and Nash first should up in WCW) leading to the NWO (and most of the things that happened in the NWO from 1996 till the end of 1998) along with many, many other things in WCW (like the Cruiserweights) was damn awesome. Especially Sullivan's booking for Goldberg (which was greatness). Goldberg became Sullivan's pet project and he objected to Goldberg losing at Starrcade 1998, but Nash overruled him with politics.
Sullivan is very professional. While Nash has roasted Sullivan in shoot interviews, Sullivan always stays professional when discussing WCW.
(edited 1 week ago)zzeennoolloo posted...sniperfox29 posted...
Sullivan should have been the one in control, not Nash (but politics wins in the end, which Nash was good at).
You mean the Sullivan who a lot of wrestlers hated and tried to quit when Sullivan was even given a sniff of power?
That's the paradox of the situation. Kevin Sullivan is a VERY talented booker most of the time (especially during mid 96 till the end of 98). He was booking some god tier stuff in WCW from mid 1996 till late 1998 (which is when WCW was # 1 and WWE (WWF) was in the shit hole for a large portion of that time when it came to ratings), however, some wrestlers hated him and used politics against him (which led to Nash to officially becoming the top creative mind during early to mid 1999).
HOWEVER, one of Sullivan's main problems was Chris Benoit.... the same Chris Benoit who slept with Sullivan's wife (Nancy) and caused Sullivan's marriage to end as Benoit took Nancy as his own wife, screwing Sullivan over. Then Benoit got many of his buddies to join his cause against Sullivan. In the end, many of the people against Sullivan were dirty pieces of shit (like Benoit, who was paranoid that Sullivan was going to get revenge since Benoit slept with Sullivan's wife, caused a divorce, and claimed Sullian's wife as his own. The irony of this was that in various shoot interview, Sullivan stated that he ALWAYS stayed professional and did what's best for the show from mid 96 till the end of 98 before Nash started to pop up..... Sullivan did what's best for business, NOT for himself):
I think you'd just buy anything that would further your foolish narrative that Benoit was a piece of shit. Common sense would tell you that it was Kevin Sullivan that was the piece of shit.The Poster Formerly Known As BooBooNukem! I'm a Jesus Freak!!! Woohoo!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/biggwilliestylk/ - http://www.last.fm/user/BiggWillieStylk/Oliver_Oliver posted...zzeennoolloo posted...
Oh, and the David Flair story (which led to a David Flair U.S title reign while under Nash's booking) was indeed horrendous.
I now give you one of the WORST matches I have ever seen. It's only about 4 minutes long, but I guarantee you will see SEVERAL very noticeable botches. El Dandy (David Flair's opponent) tries his best to carry the match (he really does), but David Flair is a pure botchamania machine from hell. Poor El Dandy..... poor guy would have better luck making a five star match with a fucking broom than he would have with David "Botch" Flair:
I've never seen so many botches in one match... and it's not even a long match. LMAO.
Holy shit.... that really is a horrendous match. LMAO.
On a scale from 1 to 10, I give it a - 1 (yes, a negative 1). I feel sorry for El Dandy being placed in a situation like that. I think El Dandy wrestling a toaster would have made for a better match.... the toaster would have sold El Dandy's moves better and provided more convincing offense...
Lol
"Flair takes a step back"SavageGlum100 posted...Oliver_Oliver posted...
zzeennoolloo posted...
show hidden quote(s)
Holy shit.... that really is a horrendous match. LMAO.
On a scale from 1 to 10, I give it a - 1 (yes, a negative 1). I feel sorry for El Dandy being placed in a situation like that. I think El Dandy wrestling a toaster would have made for a better match.... the toaster would have sold El Dandy's moves better and provided more convincing offense...
El Dandy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A broom >>>>> a toaster >>>>> the Reeses Peanut Butter Cup wrapper on my floor >>>>>>>> the gum under my boot >>>>>>> David Flair's wrestling ability.
What the hell was Nash thinking booking David Flair as United States champion?!?
Anyway,
Nash didn't like Sullivan (which I strongly suspect led to Nash using politics to get into creative and becoming head booker during early to mid 1999 with Sullivan not in charge), but Sullivan was a god tier wrestling booker compared to Nash, Russo, etc.
While Sullivan's earlier stuff (when he was just starting out) wasn't the best (his WCW 1995 Dungeon of Doom stuff was cartoonish.... but it did get entertaining many times in a fun cartoonish way and still got better ratings than most of 1995 WWE, which was much worse) Sullivan's booking got infinitely better later on and his decisions behind the "Hostile Takeover" story (when Hall and Nash first should up in WCW) leading to the NWO (and most of the things that happened in the NWO from 1996 till the end of 1998) along with many, many other things in WCW (like the Cruiserweights) was damn awesome. Especially Sullivan's booking for Goldberg (which was greatness). Goldberg became Sullivan's pet project and he objected to Goldberg losing at Starrcade 1998, but Nash overruled him with politics.
Sullivan is very professional. While Nash has roasted Sullivan in shoot interviews, Sullivan always stays professional when discussing WCW.
The thing is that Sullivan knew the Dungeon of Doom stuff was crap. He booked it to appease Hogan and get what he wanted from him, because Hogan wanted outlandish cartoon villains to fight, and so in that sense it was genius. There would be no nWo without the Dungeon of Doom.
0:53 mark:
SavageGlum100 posted...Oliver_Oliver posted...
zzeennoolloo posted...
show hidden quote(s)
Holy shit.... that really is a horrendous match. LMAO.
On a scale from 1 to 10, I give it a - 1 (yes, a negative 1). I feel sorry for El Dandy being placed in a situation like that. I think El Dandy wrestling a toaster would have made for a better match.... the toaster would have sold El Dandy's moves better and provided more convincing offense...
El Dandy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A broom >>>>> a toaster >>>>> the Reeses Peanut Butter Cup wrapper on my floor >>>>>>>> the gum under my boot >>>>>>> David Flair's wrestling ability.
What the hell was Nash thinking booking David Flair as United States champion?!?
They did actually have a kind of logical story to it though no denying it was a downright bad story to do.
What they were going for with the David Flair stuff was to do a parody of the real life cases of "wrestling promoter pushes his son into a top spot". What they set out to accomplish with David Flair being in matches showcasing he had no wrestling ability yet still beating guys and eventually winning the US title was to give Ric Flair more heel heat as the President of the company.
They had backstage segments, one of which involving El Dandy where Arn Anderson was trying to get people to intentionally lose their matches against David. But like a lot of Nash's booking and Russo's after him, their logic behind stuff like this becomes lost and inconsequential to what people see at face value which is just terrible wrestlecrap and harming to the reputation of the product.Are you not....entertained!?Snake posted...ssjmole posted...
Nash was still better than Russo though in terms of what he brought to wcw all around.
The main thing Nash maintained at least was WCW's identity which Russo completely changed overnight. Even with a lot of shit angles WCW still felt like the same southern-style more wrestling focused product.
Russo immediately turned WCW into WWF-Lite and they lost any semblance of their own style. Everything felt like a poor mans Raw with less wrestling and more stupid shit which was especially bad considering WWF had such a popular product at the time. Add in Russo's stupid "shoot" booking fetish and you had a recipe for disaster.
I can see that. Yeah I meant Nash helped with nWo stuff which was huge for wcw. Became one of the the talents you think of when you say wcw. Russo was just bad without the WWE filter to help make gold out of his turds. Like making himself champion , rebooting all belts , David Arquette , title belts in boxes around the ring Judy Bagwell on a forklift ect ..
When you think the good stuff of wcw (Monday night wars era) Nash is there. You think the bad Russo is there.Signature, What's that?Slightly off topic but I'm in the minority that thinks Nash going over Goldberg was the right move. Goldberg needed to lose at some point and Nash was the best option, and the circumstance around the loss was perfect.
What happened after is a different story entirelyNoctis 906atk, Reberta 869atk,- 813.793.244Dynedux posted...Slightly off topic but I'm in the minority that thinks Nash going over Goldberg was the right move. Goldberg needed to lose at some point and Nash was the best option, and the circumstance around the loss was perfect.
What happened after is a different story entirely
No I agree with that. As it took interference and a tazer to do it. He looked strong as hell. I don't see the narrative of it been a flat out burial.Signature, What's that?I am not even saying they should have went with Hall -- just that he would have been better than Nash. They should have kept Sullivan.
Who, was we are discussing, was hated by people. Sullivan can play the blame game card all he wants, and try to be the innocent victim. But the fact remains putting him back in defacto charge of the booking committee led to WCW losing its best wrestlers. If he really cared about the organisation, he would have stepped down voluntarily when he realised what would happen.
And considering the shit booking that followed this incident, I have doubts on this "god tier booking" you guys keep peddling. Or did Sullivan have an excuse for that as well?I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29Dynedux posted...Slightly off topic but I'm in the minority that thinks Nash going over Goldberg was the right move. Goldberg needed to lose at some point and Nash was the best option, and the circumstance around the loss was perfect.
What happened after is a different story entirely
Heenan said it was a terrible move, Goldberg was still over (not as over as he could have been thanks to executive interference, but still), still shifting a ton of merchandise. If anything, he should have been pushed better than he was.
Goldberg winning the title was huge, no doubt, but he spent the majority of his reign playing second fiddle to Hogan and celebrities.I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29sniperfox29 posted...Dynedux posted...
Slightly off topic but I'm in the minority that thinks Nash going over Goldberg was the right move. Goldberg needed to lose at some point and Nash was the best option, and the circumstance around the loss was perfect.
What happened after is a different story entirely
Heenan said it was a terrible move, Goldberg was still over (not as over as he could have been thanks to executive interference, but still), still shifting a ton of merchandise. If anything, he should have been pushed better than he was.
Goldberg winning the title was huge, no doubt, but he spent the majority of his reign playing second fiddle to Hogan and celebrities.
I agree that his reign was lackluster. I just mean the actual end of it, I think Nash was the best choice and the ending of the match was perfect. Goldberg should have been more of a focal point of the company during that time period thoughNoctis 906atk, Reberta 869atk,- 813.793.244Dynedux posted...sniperfox29 posted...
Dynedux posted...
show hidden quote(s)
Heenan said it was a terrible move, Goldberg was still over (not as over as he could have been thanks to executive interference, but still), still shifting a ton of merchandise. If anything, he should have been pushed better than he was.
Goldberg winning the title was huge, no doubt, but he spent the majority of his reign playing second fiddle to Hogan and celebrities.
I agree that his reign was lackluster. I just mean the actual end of it, I think Nash was the best choice and the ending of the match was perfect. Goldberg should have been more of a focal point of the company during that time period though
You can argue that Nash being "the best choice" was simply down to the fact they hadn't booked anyone else remotely competent enough to look good.
Then surprisingly one of the guys running the show suddenly looks amazing and gets to end the streak?
It should have been used to push the next big star, not fall back on a substandard worker with power.I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29Eh, they weren't pushing new people even before Nash. Hell, Goldberg was the new top tier talent. Ideally I would have liked Nash to hold it and Goldberg chase it again to ultimately win it back around Bash or so...Noctis 906atk, Reberta 869atk,- 813.793.244That's the problem, you said Nash was the best person (debatable but let's go with that) but that was only because they hadn't booked anyone else to look good.
Wraith (IIRC) was looking excellent right up until Nash got his "i'm going to beat Goldie superpush", and was promptly fed to Nash to make him look good.I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29(edited 1 week ago)Oh man, wraith was never going to be top tier. Certainly not a Goldberg killer. Booking him as such would have been as foolish as not booking anyone was.Noctis 906atk, Reberta 869atk,- 813.793.244Lmao, we both mistook wraith and mortisNoctis 906atk, Reberta 869atk,- 813.793.244So we'll agree that Nash was the best person just by default because of WCW incompetence then?I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29Dynedux posted...Lmao, we both mistook wraith and mortis
I know, had to double check.I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29sniperfox29 posted...So we'll agree that Nash was the best person just by default because of WCW incompetence then?
Fair enough!Noctis 906atk, Reberta 869atk,- 813.793.244BiggWillieStylk posted...zzeennoolloo posted...
sniperfox29 posted...
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That's the paradox of the situation. Kevin Sullivan is a VERY talented booker most of the time (especially during mid 96 till the end of 98). He was booking some god tier stuff in WCW from mid 1996 till late 1998 (which is when WCW was # 1 and WWE (WWF) was in the shit hole for a large portion of that time when it came to ratings), however, some wrestlers hated him and used politics against him (which led to Nash to officially becoming the top creative mind during early to mid 1999).
HOWEVER, one of Sullivan's main problems was Chris Benoit.... the same Chris Benoit who slept with Sullivan's wife (Nancy) and caused Sullivan's marriage to end as Benoit took Nancy as his own wife, screwing Sullivan over. Then Benoit got many of his buddies to join his cause against Sullivan. In the end, many of the people against Sullivan were dirty pieces of shit (like Benoit, who was paranoid that Sullivan was going to get revenge since Benoit slept with Sullivan's wife, caused a divorce, and claimed Sullian's wife as his own. The irony of this was that in various shoot interview, Sullivan stated that he ALWAYS stayed professional and did what's best for the show from mid 96 till the end of 98 before Nash started to pop up..... Sullivan did what's best for business, NOT for himself):
I think you'd just buy anything that would further your foolish narrative that Benoit was a piece of shit. Common sense would tell you that it was Kevin Sullivan that was the piece of shit.
@BiggWillieStylk
Considering Chris Benoit went and took Sullivan's wife Nancy, slept with her while she was still married to Sullivan, leading to Nancy divorcing Sullivan and then marrying Benoit, then Benoit getting paranoid that Sullivan was out to get him (when Sullivan wasn't and even went as far as to put the WORLD TITLE on Benoit, but Benoit still got paranoid), Benoit tried to get Sullivan fired from WCW and then helped blacklist Sullivan from WWE, and then years later, Benoit MURDERS Nancy and KILLS his son who was only seven years old, I'm pretty fucking sure Sullivan is NOT the piece of shit in any of these situations.
Chris Benoit was a very talented five star wrestler inside the ring.
Outside the ring? Benoit was a HUGE piece of shit that did a LOT of horrible things to people over the years. CHRIS BENOIT WAS ALWAYS A PIECE OF SHIT.
After Russo got sent home during the beginning of January 2000, Sullivan put the WORLD TITLE on Benoit and had plans to put the tag team titles on two of the other Radicals. Sullivan was trying to be the professional while Benoit was being a paranoid piece of shit. The demands set by Benoit was a "us or him" ultimatum where Benoit wanted Sullivan FIRED from WCW in order for Benoit and the rest of the Radicals to stay. Sullivan tried his best given this shitty situation. Giving the world belt to Benoit before Benoit jumped ship to WWE the next night proved to be a HUGE mistake as it fucked up a lot of things.
After Benoit left, Sullivan's LONG TERM plan for the year 2000 was to put the World title back on Goldberg (who hadn't had the world title since Starrcade 98) after Goldberg came back from his injury and SLOWLY start rebuilding everyone else while trying to undo Russo's and Nash's shitty booking mistakes from all of 1999. Russo came back during April 2000 and Sullivan never got to carry out any of his long term plans (and Goldberg NEVER got a second world title reign in WCW since Russo and Goldberg HATED each other. Instead, Jeff Jarrett and David Arquette and Russo himself got world title reigns).Creator of the most talked about 500 post topic on the Wii U board, the most populated board on Gamefaqs. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/631516-wii-u/72708411(edited 1 week ago)sniperfox29 posted...So we'll agree that Nash was the best person just by default because of WCW incompetence then?
I’d argue DDP was a good shout to end the streak, when he hit the Diamond Cutter on Goldberg at Halloween Havoc the place erupted.
Also worth noting I believe in one of his recent podcasts that Schiavone claimed that Hogan didn’t want to work with Nash and that might have been one of the reasons for the Fingerpoke of Doom.Playing for Celtic meant more to me than playing for Northern Ireland Neil LennonITT zenellololol doesn't realize that Nancy was also responsible for Nancy sleeping with Chris and maybe Kevin and Nancy weren't in that great of a relationship after allNoctis 906atk, Reberta 869atk,- 813.793.244Dynedux posted...ITT zenellololol doesn't realize that Nancy was also responsible for Nancy sleeping with Chris and maybe Kevin and Nancy weren't in that great of a relationship after all
We should also take everything Sullivan said as gospel and in no way could he be lying to make himself look better.
I mean, it's not like people ever do that.I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29Who would do that? Just make lies on the internet??Noctis 906atk, Reberta 869atk,- 813.793.244Dynedux posted...ITT zenellololol doesn't realize that Nancy was also responsible for Nancy sleeping with Chris and maybe Kevin and Nancy weren't in that great of a relationship after all
Yeah, and Kevin was the one who put them in that situation.The Poster Formerly Known As BooBooNukem! I'm a Jesus Freak!!! Woohoo!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/biggwilliestylk/ - http://www.last.fm/user/BiggWillieStylk/No finger poke would not have changed anything, the tide was already turning. They had no plan for life after the nWo, no long term booking strategy and no desire or need to foster younger talent. Just listen to Bischoff or Dusty talk about it, they were all giddy when they got the Nielson's on Tuesday. That's all they cared about, what did they have to do THAT WEEK to win the ratings battle. They were incapable of looking 6 months to a year down the road. They lucked into something with Goldberg but allowed Hogan and Nash to call the shots and ruin it.~ Not changing this until the Madden Franchise has a decent running game!
Started 8/24/2009 --- http://suchanerdpod.podomatic.com/Snake posted...They did actually have a kind of logical story to it though no denying it was a downright bad story to do.
What they were going for with the David Flair stuff was to do a parody of the real life cases of "wrestling promoter pushes his son into a top spot". What they set out to accomplish with David Flair being in matches showcasing he had no wrestling ability yet still beating guys and eventually winning the US title was to give Ric Flair more heel heat as the President of the company.
They had backstage segments, one of which involving El Dandy where Arn Anderson was trying to get people to intentionally lose their matches against David. But like a lot of Nash's booking and Russo's after him, their logic behind stuff like this becomes lost and inconsequential to what people see at face value which is just terrible wrestlecrap and harming to the reputation of the product.
Somewhat I was going to say. David Flair may be terrible but it was working to establish Ric Flair abusing his power. Similar to Bischoff in the first eight months NWO was around.
ssjmole posted...I can see that. Yeah I meant Nash helped with nWo stuff which was huge for wcw. Became one of the the talents you think of when you say wcw. Russo was just bad without the WWE filter to help make gold out of his turds. Like making himself champion , rebooting all belts , David Arquette , title belts in boxes around the ring Judy Bagwell on a forklift ect ..
When you think the good stuff of wcw (Monday night wars era) Nash is there. You think the bad Russo is there.
Rebooting the belts seems bad on paper, but WCW was getting great there with the New Blood/Millionaire's Club war. WCW was good for about a month and a half, they just didn't keep at it.ChaseXtreme posted...Snake posted...
They did actually have a kind of logical story to it though no denying it was a downright bad story to do.
What they were going for with the David Flair stuff was to do a parody of the real life cases of "wrestling promoter pushes his son into a top spot". What they set out to accomplish with David Flair being in matches showcasing he had no wrestling ability yet still beating guys and eventually winning the US title was to give Ric Flair more heel heat as the President of the company.
They had backstage segments, one of which involving El Dandy where Arn Anderson was trying to get people to intentionally lose their matches against David. But like a lot of Nash's booking and Russo's after him, their logic behind stuff like this becomes lost and inconsequential to what people see at face value which is just terrible wrestlecrap and harming to the reputation of the product.
Somewhat I was going to say. David Flair may be terrible but it was working to establish Ric Flair abusing his power. Similar to Bischoff in the first eight months NWO was around.
ssjmole posted...I can see that. Yeah I meant Nash helped with nWo stuff which was huge for wcw. Became one of the the talents you think of when you say wcw. Russo was just bad without the WWE filter to help make gold out of his turds. Like making himself champion , rebooting all belts , David Arquette , title belts in boxes around the ring Judy Bagwell on a forklift ect ..
When you think the good stuff of wcw (Monday night wars era) Nash is there. You think the bad Russo is there.
Rebooting the belts seems bad on paper, but WCW was getting great there with the New Blood/Millionaire's Club war. WCW was good for about a month and a half, they just didn't keep at it.
See this
http://www.wwe.com/videos/eric-bischoff-vince-russo-strip-the-champions-of-wcw-of-their-titles-nitro-april-10-2000
Just annoyed me lol and not in a good waySignature, What's that?Dynedux posted...ITT zenellololol doesn't realize that Nancy was also responsible for Nancy sleeping with Chris and maybe Kevin and Nancy weren't in that great of a relationship after all
Both Nancy and Benoit were pieces of shits.
Nancy was a piece of shit for cheating on her husband (Sullivan) at the time. Benoit was a piece of shit for sleeping with Nancy when Sullivan trusted both Nancy and Benoit at the time. Nancy and Benoit were huge pieces of shit.
To add fuel to the fire, both Benoit and Nancy (who decided to be even bigger pieces of shits) created backstage chaos when Sullivan was trying to be nice to Benoit and gave Benoit the world title during January 2000. This interview with Mike Graham explains more:
I want my Earthbound!!!(edited 1 week ago)The_REAL_Duke_O posted...Dynedux posted...
ITT zenellololol doesn't realize that Nancy was also responsible for Nancy sleeping with Chris and maybe Kevin and Nancy weren't in that great of a relationship after all
Both Nancy and Benoit were pieces of shits.
Nancy was a piece of shit for cheating on her husband (Sullivan) at the time. Benoit was a piece of shit for sleeping with Nancy when Sullivan trusted both Nancy and Benoit at the time. Nancy and Benoit were huge pieces of shit.
To add fuel to the fire, both Benoit and Nancy (who decided to be even bigger pieces of shits) created backstage chaos when Sullivan was trying to be nice to Benoit and gave Benoit the world title during January 2000. This interview with Mike Graham explains more:
Thank you!
Benoit was a shit stain to humanity.
It should also be noted that Sullivan's original plan after Russo left the first time during January 2000 was to have Benoit as World champion from mid-January till mid-May (a good four months as world champion) and then use Sid Vicious as a transitional world champion by getting revenge on Benoit by winning the world title (keep in mind that Benoit beat Sid by taping him out during mid-January to win the World title) and then when Goldberg came back at the end of May, to have Goldberg win the world title from Sid during June 2000 making Goldberg a two time WCW world champion. Instead, Benoit fucked everything up after only one day of getting the WCW world title by beating Sid during mid-January 2000 and then Benoit leaves with the rest of the Radicals to the WWE.
Also, ONE month of Sullivan's reign as booker during mid January to mid February 2000, reports were coming in as early as mid-February that Russo was being bought back as lead booker, this time with Eric Bischoff. By the end of March 2000, Nitro went on a short hiatus and by April, Russo is mostly in charge again (with a bit of Bischoff). NONE of Sullivan's long term plans happened since Sullivan was no longer in power. Goldberg NEVER becomes a second time WCW world champion. Yet, under Russo, Jarrett gets the world title four times. Hell, David Arquette gets a world title run. Russo even wins the world title. While guys who did deserve the world title like Booker T do win it, it's overwhelmed with all the other bullshit at the time.
It should be noted that everyone else on the booking committee told Sullivan to NOT give the world title to Benoit, but Sullivan gave the belt to Benoit anyway, (which proved to be a fatal mistake):
Again, Benoit was a shit stain to humanity.Creator of the most talked about 500 post topic on the Wii U board, the most populated board on Gamefaqs. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/631516-wii-u/72708411(edited 1 week ago)zzeennoolloo posted...The_REAL_Duke_O posted...
Dynedux posted...
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Both Nancy and Benoit were pieces of shits.
Nancy was a piece of shit for cheating on her husband (Sullivan) at the time. Benoit was a piece of shit for sleeping with Nancy when Sullivan trusted both Nancy and Benoit at the time. Nancy and Benoit were huge pieces of shit.
To add fuel to the fire, both Benoit and Nancy (who decided to be even bigger pieces of shits) created backstage chaos when Sullivan was trying to be nice to Benoit and gave Benoit the world title during January 2000. This interview with Mike Graham explains more:
Thank you!
Benoit was a shit stain to humanity.
It should also be noted that Sullivan's original plan after Russo left the first time during January 2000 was to have Benoit as World champion from mid-January till mid-May (a good four months as world champion) and then use Sid Vicious as a transitional world champion by getting revenge on Benoit by winning the world title (keep in mind that Benoit beat Sid by taping him out during mid-January to win the World title) and then when Goldberg came back at the end of May, to have Goldberg win the world title from Sid during June 2000 making Goldberg a two time WCW world champion. Instead, Benoit fucked everything up after only one day of getting the WCW world title by beating Sid during mid-January 2000 and then Benoit leaves with the rest of the Radicals to the WWE.
Also, ONE month of Sullivan's reign as booker during mid January to mid February 2000, reports were coming in as early as mid-February that Russo was being bought back as lead booker, this time with Eric Bischoff. By the end of March 2000, Nitro went on a short hiatus and by April, Russo is mostly in charge again (with a bit of Bischoff). NONE of Sullivan's long term plans happened since Sullivan was no longer in power. Goldberg NEVER becomes a second time WCW world champion. Yet, under Russo, Jarrett gets the world title four times. Hell, David Arquette gets a world title run. Russo even wins the world title. While guys who did deserve the world title like Booker T do win it, it's overwhelmed with all the other bullshit at the time.
It should be noted that everyone else on the booking committee told Sullivan to NOT give the world title to Benoit, but Sullivan gave the belt to Benoit anyway, (which proved to be a fatal mistake):
Again, Benoit was a shit stain to humanity.
No, Nancy and Benoit weren't exactly innocent in that matter, but let's not act like Sullivan didn't foul up his own marriage before Benoit even cam into the picture. In fact Benoit was probably the least guilty in that matter.The Poster Formerly Known As BooBooNukem! I'm a Jesus Freak!!! Woohoo!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/biggwilliestylk/ - http://www.last.fm/user/BiggWillieStylk/Instead, Benoit fucked everything up after only one day of getting the WCW world title by beating Sid during mid-January 2000 and then Benoit leaves with the rest of the Radicals to the WWE.
Benoit said he was going to leave, and yet they still put the belt on him in the hopes of conning him into stay. That isn't Benoit "fucking it up".
It should be noted that everyone else on the booking committee told Sullivan to NOT give the world title to Benoit, but Sullivan gave the belt to Benoit anyway,
Because BENOIT SAID HE WAS LEAVING, the rest of the committee realised Benoit probably wouldn't stay, but Sullivan pushed through with it anyway. Whether or not he had good intentions is irrelevant.
Look, you can use Benoit as a scapegoat all you want and hail the almighty Taskmaster. But the fact is this:
He was directly responsible for his best workers leaving
If he was as professional as you claim, he would have stepped down from the committee, at least until he was sure there would be no repercussions
WCW were prepared to throw him under a bus to keep the Radicals, they didn't stand by him.I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29sniperfox29 posted...Instead, Benoit fucked everything up after only one day of getting the WCW world title by beating Sid during mid-January 2000 and then Benoit leaves with the rest of the Radicals to the WWE.
Benoit said he was going to leave, and yet they still put the belt on him in the hopes of conning him into stay. That isn't Benoit "fucking it up".
It should be noted that everyone else on the booking committee told Sullivan to NOT give the world title to Benoit, but Sullivan gave the belt to Benoit anyway,
Because BENOIT SAID HE WAS LEAVING, the rest of the committee realised Benoit probably wouldn't stay, but Sullivan pushed through with it anyway. Whether or not he had good intentions is irrelevant.
Look, you can use Benoit as a scapegoat all you want and hail the almighty Taskmaster. But the fact is this:
He was directly responsible for his best workers leaving
If he was as professional as you claim, he would have stepped down from the committee, at least until he was sure there would be no repercussions
WCW were prepared to throw him under a bus to keep the Radicals, they didn't stand by him.
Benoit was a worthless mother fucker who took the wife of one of his friends at the time (Sullivan), had sex with his friend's wife, and then proceeded to try to destroy his former friend's life.
If you had bothered to watch the Mike Graham video I posted (which is still in my previous post above in post # 84) you would know that Benoit gave an ultimatum that he would stay under the condition that Sullivan and some others (like Mike Graham) were FIRED. There was NO option for Sullivan to simply step down as lead booker, Benoit wanted him FIRED or else he would leave.
Benoit had already taken Sullivan's wife Nancy as his own, had taken Sullivan's fucking condo after the divorce between Nancy and Sullivan had settled and Nancy got half of Sullivan's stuff, now Benoit wanted Sullivan to lose his fucking job? Is he fucking kidding me? That shit is going to far. Granted, we are talking about a guy who ended up murdering his wife and seven year old son years later, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Sullivan doesn't want to have to quit his job over some political bullshit (which I find it ironic how Benoit would always complain about WCW politics, yet here he was during January 2000 committing a highly political business move that was outright unethical. He would stay provided several others were fired.... how fucked up is that shit?). Sullivan tried to be the mature one here by trying to show Benoit that he was NOT trying to screw him over (despite Benoit's paranoia. If you watched any of the shoot interviews with Sullivan, you would have seen that Sullivan had a long record of NOT screwing Benoit over) and that he would give him the world championship (which he did. He had Benoit tap Sid out in the middle of the ring to get the WCW world title).
Benoit then leaves to WWE, not bothering to drop the WCW world title back to anyone. Benoit fucked over Sid and Sullivan and fucked the rest of WCW by doing that shit. Want to leave? Fine, but drop the fucking title before you leave. Don't fuck over everyone else. As far as I'm concerned, Benoit is a contributor to the death of WCW.
Sullivan was responsible for many things that made WCW # 1 from mid 96 till the near end of 98 when he was booking WCW. Politics intervene when Nash became head booker during early to mid 1999 and fucked up the show (with Russo causing further harm later in 1999). Sullivan got his old position back in January 2000 and had some great plans set up for the future (one of which was a 2nd world title reign for Goldberg), but none of those plans happened because Benoit had to be a mother fucking piece of shit.... then we got Russo back and shit like David Arquette as world champ happened.I want my Earthbound!!!(edited 1 week ago)YikesNoctis 906atk, Reberta 869atk,- 813.793.244Where did that whole thing with Sid winning the belt from Benoit and Goldberg taking it from Sid come from? I always thought Benoit was supposed to have a decent run then drop it to Nash.JfAtS1O3N posted...Where did that whole thing with Sid winning the belt from Benoit and Goldberg taking it from Sid come from? I always thought Benoit was supposed to have a decent run then drop it to Nash.
I think Kevin "Never Told A Lie In His Life" Sullivan said that was his planNoctis 906atk, Reberta 869atk,- 813.793.244Honestly, a booker that didn't learn anything from the whole business with both Madusa and Bret Hart (plus Jeff Jarrett to a lesser extent) only has himself to blame. If Sullivan wanted Benoit to stay, and was willing to offer him the title as part of the deal, then he should've had his signature on the contract before Souled Out started. If Sullivan chose to trust in Benoit's word with no other proof that he'd stick around then that's his failing. Wrestling is a business full of self interested liars, after all, you shouldn't be surprised when the guy who openly doesn't like you turns out to be one.
Also the claim that Benoit is a contributor to the death of WCW is a little shaky in my opinion. If he is then he's a long way down that list. Frankly, the guy was never positioned prominently enough to have a significant impact on the success of the company. It's important to remember that even when he won the title at Souled Out he wasn't WCW's first choice, he was subbed into the title match when Bret Hart had to pull out of the show (and eventually retire) due to concussions.Look at arson - I mean, how many of us can honestly say that at one time or another he hasn't set fire to some great public building? I know I have.(edited 1 week ago)Going back to Kevin Nash for a second, Putting Nash ahead of Sullivan in the creative process during December 1998's Starrcade and the first half of 1999 with Nash as head booker was a huge mistake.
10 Things Kevin Nash Ruined in WCW! (fingerpoke of doom is only at # 9)
I want my Earthbound!!!(edited 1 week ago)The_REAL_Duke_O posted...Going back to Kevin Nash for a second, Putting Nash ahead of Sullivan in the creative process during December 1998's Starrcade and the first half of 1999 with Nash as head booker was a huge mistake.
10 Things Kevin Nash Ruined in WCW! (fingerpoke of doom is only at # 9)
I don't think Nash was booking during fingerpoke of doom or Goldberg's undefeated streak ending.
A lot of these other things have nothing to do with booking, such as guaranteed contracts and phoning it in...
The vanilla midgets comment was made after Guerrerro and Benoit won the world titles in the WWE, I am pretty sure. And both of those guys were about where they should have been on the card in WCW in 1999. Neither would win the world title in WWE until 4 years later.
Ric Flair won the world title during Nash's booking reign. So I don't see that as "burying" him.
Only thing on that entire video that is accurate is booking Mysterio to lose his mask, which was a poor decision, but considering where Mysterio was on the card, probably didn't affect ratings much at all.
Worse is how Nash jobbed out Bret, Jericho, and the entire nWo.sniperfox29 posted...I am not even saying they should have went with Hall -- just that he would have been better than Nash. They should have kept Sullivan.
Who, was we are discussing, was hated by people. Sullivan can play the blame game card all he wants, and try to be the innocent victim. But the fact remains putting him back in defacto charge of the booking committee led to WCW losing its best wrestlers. If he really cared about the organisation, he would have stepped down voluntarily when he realised what would happen.
And considering the shit booking that followed this incident, I have doubts on this "god tier booking" you guys keep peddling. Or did Sullivan have an excuse for that as well?
Russo > Hall > Sullivan > NashThe Poster Formerly Known As BooBooNukem! I'm a Jesus Freak!!! Woohoo!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/biggwilliestylk/ - http://www.last.fm/user/BiggWillieStylk/BiggWillieStylk posted...sniperfox29 posted...
I am not even saying they should have went with Hall -- just that he would have been better than Nash. They should have kept Sullivan.
Who, was we are discussing, was hated by people. Sullivan can play the blame game card all he wants, and try to be the innocent victim. But the fact remains putting him back in defacto charge of the booking committee led to WCW losing its best wrestlers. If he really cared about the organisation, he would have stepped down voluntarily when he realised what would happen.
And considering the shit booking that followed this incident, I have doubts on this "god tier booking" you guys keep peddling. Or did Sullivan have an excuse for that as well?
Russo > Hall > Sullivan > Nash
I love how you keep pushing a drunk who never ever booked as a savior.I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29People can harp on others all they want but Nash is the only one who inherited a company that was doing well and ran it to the ground. In the other cases, they were already doing terribly.Nash didn't start booking until February in 1999 I believe. I think he did have a hand in the decisions before that but wasn't the sole decision maker nor the main guy in charge. I don't get the crap he gets for the "vanilla midgets" stuff, when he was booking Benoit, Saturn, and Malenko were all doing a lot more than they were doing in the months prior.sniperfox29 posted...BiggWillieStylk posted...
sniperfox29 posted...
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Russo > Hall > Sullivan > Nash
I love how you keep pushing a drunk who never ever booked as a savior.
The fact that Hall would have been better than Sullivan or Nash says more about how bad Sullivan and Nash were than how good Hall would have been.The Poster Formerly Known As BooBooNukem! I'm a Jesus Freak!!! Woohoo!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/biggwilliestylk/ - http://www.last.fm/user/BiggWillieStylk/BiggWillieStylk posted...sniperfox29 posted...
BiggWillieStylk posted...
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I love how you keep pushing a drunk who never ever booked as a savior.
The fact that Hall would have been better than Sullivan or Nash says more about how bad Sullivan and Nash were than how good Hall would have been.
No, it shows your looking into an incredible, invisible crystal ball and producing shit.
Newsflash, Hall, the drunk, was best friends with Nash. Don't you think that may influence (along with the huge amounts of booze) his decision making just a tiny bit.
There's a widely held belief that bookers should be kept as far away from the screen as possible because the lure of fame and fortune is just too much, they can't accept that what's (pardon the expression) best for business doesn't involve them.I love to watch you cry
GT - Sniperfox29- Boards
- Pro Wrestling: WWE
- Let's say Fingerpoke doesn't happen, WCW wins the ratings that night
- Boards
- Pro Wrestling: WWE
- Let's say Fingerpoke doesn't happen, WCW wins the ratings that night
- Boards
- Pro Wrestling: WWE
- Let's say Fingerpoke doesn't happen, WCW wins the ratings that night
